The question from our Greek class was, is baptism scriptural if you wear a wet suit or are in a diving bell and you don't get wet? Baptism is an act of faith and obedience. Faith to accept what one does not know about scriptural baptism. Obedience to get down in the water. The Greek prep "ev" or "in" means inside of - you have to be in the water, inside of the water, not just surrounded by water. I'd say yes, you have to get wety to be immersed
Of Course you have to get wet, completely wet, completely immersed. The Bible requires four things for Scriptural Baptism: 1. Proper Candidate -- a saved person. 2. Proper Mode -- immersion in water. 3. Proper Design or Purpose -- To picture the death, burial, and resurrection of Our Lord Jesus and to picture what has already happened in the heart of the born again blood brought believer, the candidate. 4. Proper Authority -- a New Testament Church.
Just a question...scriptural baptism represent a burial...were people buried in Israel like they are today...in some sort of tomb? Jesus wasn't actually touching every inch of the tomb that he was in...yet he was submersed into the earth.
My point is that if a person is wearing a wet suit they are still submersed in the water...a diving bell is a different matter, I think...I actually have no idea what a diving bell is.
If it's what I think it is then I would say that would be wrong.
Basically, a heavy (iron) bucket turned upside down and lowered into the water will not fill up with water because the water cannot displace the air.
Modern bells are now used as a safety precaution for divers. Should their equipment fail while diving, they can escape to the bell, which is a simple basket that has a covered top, with a couple of air tanks to replenish the air in the bell, since it could take over an hour to get topside.
So simply it is an air bubble that is held in the water. Hmm, kind of like a tomb :)
Did Jesus need to be baptized? John said he needed to be baptized by Jesus. So why was Jesus baptized? We all know, He provided the example for us. And He got "WET", that's settles it for me. We can go in submerged submarines, tunnels, diving suits, bells or whatever without getting wet, but Jesus got wet.
He also wore sandals and probably came straight upwards from the water, or his whole body came up horizontally (no bent knees). He probably breathed a certain number of breaths before going under. He was baptized at a certain age. I don't know if something He did makes it something we have to do. We must be careful with these kind of statements. Was it the going completely under and coming completely back up in a picture of death, burial and resurrection what He was showing, or was it getting wet? If it was getting wet, what does this symbolize in death, burial and resurrection?
The word baptize just means dipped or immersed in water, but doesn't mean getting wet. If it meant getting wet, then Paul was wrong for using the word in, "And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;" (1 Corinthians 10:2).
I won't be using any diving bells or such, and probably wouldn't just b/c it is taking an unnecessary risk. Do I want to leave my baptism and church membership up to that much chance of being wrong?
I remember reading of a man somewhere in the Middle East who was saved. He wanted to be baptized, but there was no water anywhere around. The missionary (or it could have been a military chaplain) buried the man in SAND, and then pulled him up! Scriptural baptism????
I'll stand by immersion in water and nothing else. The OT example James Charles used gives us a picture of baptism. They were under the cloud and between the walls of water. It was a picture of a resurrection, buried in a particular way and then coming forth as if given new life. What God authorized was immersion in water.
I was just joking about the snow. Here lately we have had a lot of it. If I lived on a hill there would be the danger of an avalanche. Our church basement may still flood during the melting.
I just got to thinking about the question and for a time I thought you guys were just jesting and joshing. Of course, I believe we are to do it like the Bible tells us to do it. I guess the question was presented to make people think.
If they did not use diving balls, wet suits and so forth in the New Testament, then why should we do it today? What's the purpose of baptism anyway? I think I answered that more or less in my previous post.
I agree, and I won't ever use a wet suit. I just wanted to help people keep thinking. I only pointed out the word "baptized" being used in a way outside of just getting wet, to show that the word "baptize" does not include being wet. The word doesn't, but of course the picture did.
I also wanted to point out just because Jesus did something doesn't mean we have to follow it to the T. If so, how many are fasting for forty days? How many are living in the land He did? We are to follow His commands and the examples for moral standards and actions, NOT do every single physical thing He did. After all, do you want to physically die on a cross?
And I certainly do not plan to baptize in sand the next time. Water is the Bible example. But to claim to do it exactly as done in the Bible, then we need to get rid of our baptistries and only baptize in a river. I heard that Baptists originally were opposed to baptistries because they didn't have "running water." Of course I'm too young to remember those events.
When baptistries first were in use, some still demanded running water baptism. The first baptitry I knew anything about was outside where a spring was boarded yup with cyprus boards at Union Baptist Church near Bodcaw Ar in ther late 1870's. In 1922 they had to replace the boards and concreted it. It still can be seen today across the road and over the backside of the hill. I wasn't there to remember these things, but I have seen it and have been told about it years ago by the grandson (now dead) of the first woman baptized there (also dead). I wish I had been baptized in running water. I wish someday I baptism someone in running water. Bro. Looney, I understood you very well and I know you are solid, thank the Lord. Bro. Acker, I believe you are solid, too. Thank God some still hold the line on scriptural baptism.
I proposed the question for the purpose of provoking thought. In these days many crazy ideas are creeping into the Lord's New Testament churches.
False religions are engaging in many different modes of baptism.
As preachers, and laymen we need to know how to teach someone about baptism. We need to be able to tell them why walking through a tunnel surrounded with water is unscriptural.
The only way someone would not want to go into the water would be because they had a fobia of water.
To that statement let me ask, Has anyone out there experienced this?
Grappe Theology: God is all powerful. The Bible teaches us that nothing is too hard for God. I know that fobias are real, but God is greater than all fobias. Here is the Grappe Theology--I beleive that if a person had a fobia of water God would overcome that fobia and they would not be afraid to get wet.
Time for the Luscious one to step out on the limb--Baptism in sand, a tomb, or other ways to picture burial is unscriptural. God did not use these-If one goes into a storm shelter and comes out he is not baptised. Does the Bible say you have to get wet? No--The Greek does not teach that you have to get wet. The Bible does teach that God used water--not because it was in abundance or convenient. He used it becaue that is how He ordained it. As far as a wet suit-wben someone comes along with this idea tell them no-(It is inapropriate dress)a wet suit is for diving. "Well preacher we cant do that, that is being legalistic"-No it isnt-and let me say this-I would rather be a little legalistic than a heretic.
When a person is saved he needs to be scripturally baptized. He cannot be baptized by anyone who has scriptural bapism. Only the Lord's New Testament churches have the authority to baptize. When a true church agrees to give the subject scriptural baptism the candidate goes down into the water and is totaly immersed. This is God's way, it will never change.
Well, I agree except for two things. One, the "rather be a little legalistic than a heretic" if you are referring to heretic as someone who believes differently than the Bible teaches, because that would make legalism heresy.
The other, "He used it because that's how he ordained it" type argument doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying He chose water because He chose water? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. The abundance and availability of water makes sense as to WHY He ordained it that way. I mean, if He had said we needed to be baptized by going down into a tomb, lying there for three days, and then walking out (while it would have been a more accurate picture of what Jesus did), it would not have been practical. If He ordained it that way, we would have done it. But perhaps, just perhaps, He ordained the use of water because of it's availability and relative ease of access so all who are saved CAN be baptized. I agree, however, with your over all conclusion, I'd not be using a wet-suit in baptisms.
maybe God created all the water on earth because He needed it for baptism.
He chose water because that is what He wanted to use. The thought He used water because of its abundant supply is no better than the idea that He just chose water becaues that is what He wanted to use. He did, however, choose water. Why? Because He wanted to use water. We can speculate on the issue all we want but in the end we come back to "He ordained it so".
I was just saying that "He chose water b/c He chose water" does not answer the question of why. I was simply offering a possible explanation, though the truth is, we will never know on this earth.
There is a reason. I don't see our God (of the Bible) just acting sporadically and spontaneously, randomly or at whim. He seems to have a very calculated plan, with purpose in every action He makes. We humans do things based on what we want to do at the time (which only leads to errors and mistakes).
I believe God loves men, and created this earth in just a way that men might dwell in it and seek Him and feel after Him (Acts 17:27).
I'm simply saying God had a reason for choosing water, and since the earth was created for men finding and choosing Him, the most logical explanation I can come up with is that POSSIBLY He chose it due to its abundance, in that all men would be able to be baptized with relative ease. Going down into a tomb, lying there, and coming back up three days later would be a MUCH better picture tying us to Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Isn't that what we say baptism is, just a picture with no magical qualities? Anyway, this would be a MUCH better picture for the world to see, but it is NOT readily available or practical or applicable.
As to God creating water just for baptism, I don't think so, since water serves a plethora of purposes. Humans, plants, animals, the flood, lack of it for droughts and plagues, etc.
The question from our Greek class was, is baptism scriptural if you wear a wet suit or are in a diving bell and you don't get wet? Baptism is an act of faith and obedience. Faith to accept what one does not know about scriptural baptism. Obedience to get down in the water. The Greek prep "ev" or "in" means inside of - you have to be in the water, inside of the water, not just surrounded by water. I'd say yes, you have to get wety to be immersed
ReplyDeleteOf Course you have to get wet, completely wet, completely immersed.
ReplyDeleteThe Bible requires four things for Scriptural Baptism:
1. Proper Candidate -- a saved person.
2. Proper Mode -- immersion in water.
3. Proper Design or Purpose -- To picture the death, burial, and resurrection of Our Lord Jesus and to picture what has already happened in the heart of the born again blood brought believer, the candidate.
4. Proper Authority -- a New Testament Church.
Joseph L. Looney (2)
Gillette, WY
Just a question...scriptural baptism represent a burial...were people buried in Israel like they are today...in some sort of tomb? Jesus wasn't actually touching every inch of the tomb that he was in...yet he was submersed into the earth.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that if a person is wearing a wet suit they are still submersed in the water...a diving bell is a different matter, I think...I actually have no idea what a diving bell is.
If it's what I think it is then I would say that would be wrong.
Just my thoughts!
I was wondering where my "box" buddies had gone.
Diving bells have been used for centuries.
ReplyDeleteBasically, a heavy (iron) bucket turned upside down and lowered into the water will not fill up with water because the water cannot displace the air.
Modern bells are now used as a safety precaution for divers. Should their equipment fail while diving, they can escape to the bell, which is a simple basket that has a covered top, with a couple of air tanks to replenish the air in the bell, since it could take over an hour to get topside.
So simply it is an air bubble that is held in the water. Hmm, kind of like a tomb :)
Did Jesus need to be baptized? John said he needed to be baptized by Jesus. So why was Jesus baptized? We all know, He provided the example for us. And He got "WET", that's settles it for me. We can go in submerged submarines, tunnels, diving suits, bells or whatever without getting wet, but Jesus got wet.
ReplyDeleteHe also wore sandals and probably came straight upwards from the water, or his whole body came up horizontally (no bent knees). He probably breathed a certain number of breaths before going under. He was baptized at a certain age. I don't know if something He did makes it something we have to do. We must be careful with these kind of statements. Was it the going completely under and coming completely back up in a picture of death, burial and resurrection what He was showing, or was it getting wet? If it was getting wet, what does this symbolize in death, burial and resurrection?
ReplyDeleteThe word baptize just means dipped or immersed in water, but doesn't mean getting wet. If it meant getting wet, then Paul was wrong for using the word in, "And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;" (1 Corinthians 10:2).
I won't be using any diving bells or such, and probably wouldn't just b/c it is taking an unnecessary risk. Do I want to leave my baptism and church membership up to that much chance of being wrong?
I remember reading of a man somewhere in the Middle East who was saved. He wanted to be baptized, but there was no water anywhere around. The missionary (or it could have been a military chaplain) buried the man in SAND, and then pulled him up! Scriptural baptism????
ReplyDeleteBrethren I have a question,
ReplyDeleteWould it be all right to immersed the candidate for Baptism in Snow, it is water in one form?
Right now we have a lot of snow in my front yard and in front of the church which is the northside.
Just wondering and wandering!!!
I been shoveling a lot of white.
jll2, Gillette, WY
I'll stand by immersion in water and nothing else. The OT example James Charles used gives us a picture of baptism. They were under the cloud and between the walls of water. It was a picture of a resurrection, buried in a particular way and then coming forth as if given new life. What God authorized was immersion in water.
ReplyDeleteBro. Arch Bishop
ReplyDeleteI was just joking about the snow. Here lately we have had a lot of it. If I lived on a hill there would be the danger of an avalanche. Our church basement may still flood during the melting.
I just got to thinking about the question and for a time I thought you guys were just jesting and joshing. Of course, I believe we are to do it like the Bible tells us to do it. I guess the question was presented to make people think.
If they did not use diving balls, wet suits and so forth in the New Testament, then why should we do it today? What's the purpose of baptism anyway? I think I answered that more or less in my previous post.
jll2
Gillette, WY
I agree, and I won't ever use a wet suit. I just wanted to help people keep thinking. I only pointed out the word "baptized" being used in a way outside of just getting wet, to show that the word "baptize" does not include being wet. The word doesn't, but of course the picture did.
ReplyDeleteI also wanted to point out just because Jesus did something doesn't mean we have to follow it to the T. If so, how many are fasting for forty days? How many are living in the land He did? We are to follow His commands and the examples for moral standards and actions, NOT do every single physical thing He did. After all, do you want to physically die on a cross?
And I certainly do not plan to baptize in sand the next time. Water is the Bible example. But to claim to do it exactly as done in the Bible, then we need to get rid of our baptistries and only baptize in a river. I heard that Baptists originally were opposed to baptistries because they didn't have "running water." Of course I'm too young to remember those events.
ReplyDeleteWhen baptistries first were in use, some still demanded running water baptism. The first baptitry I knew anything about was outside where a spring was boarded yup with cyprus boards at Union Baptist Church near Bodcaw Ar in ther late 1870's. In 1922 they had to replace the boards and concreted it. It still can be seen today across the road and over the backside of the hill. I wasn't there to remember these things, but I have seen it and have been told about it years ago by the grandson (now dead) of the first woman baptized there (also dead). I wish I had been baptized in running water. I wish someday I baptism someone in running water. Bro. Looney, I understood you very well and I know you are solid, thank the Lord. Bro. Acker, I believe you are solid, too. Thank God some still hold the line on scriptural baptism.
ReplyDeleteHello Brothers,
ReplyDeleteI proposed the question for the purpose of provoking thought. In these days many crazy ideas are creeping into the Lord's New Testament churches.
False religions are engaging in many different modes of baptism.
As preachers, and laymen we need to know how to teach someone about baptism. We need to be able to tell them why walking through a tunnel surrounded with water is unscriptural.
The only way someone would not want to go into the water would be because they had a fobia of water.
To that statement let me ask, Has anyone out there experienced this?
Grappe Theology: God is all powerful. The Bible teaches us that nothing is too hard for God. I know that fobias are real, but God is greater than all fobias.
Here is the Grappe Theology--I beleive that if a person had a fobia of water God would overcome that fobia and they would not be afraid to get wet.
Time for the Luscious one to step out on the limb--Baptism in sand, a tomb, or other ways to picture burial is unscriptural. God did not use these-If one goes into a storm shelter and comes out he is not baptised. Does the Bible say you have to get wet? No--The Greek does not teach that you have to get wet. The Bible does teach that God used water--not because it was in abundance or convenient. He used it becaue that is how He ordained it. As far as a wet suit-wben someone comes along with this idea tell them no-(It is inapropriate dress)a wet suit is for diving. "Well preacher we cant do that, that is being legalistic"-No it isnt-and let me say this-I would rather be a little legalistic than a heretic.
When a person is saved he needs to be scripturally baptized. He cannot be baptized by anyone who has scriptural bapism. Only the Lord's New Testament churches have the authority to baptize. When a true church agrees to give the subject scriptural baptism the candidate goes down into the water and is totaly immersed. This is God's way, it will never change.
LLL
Well, I agree except for two things. One, the "rather be a little legalistic than a heretic" if you are referring to heretic as someone who believes differently than the Bible teaches, because that would make legalism heresy.
ReplyDeleteThe other, "He used it because that's how he ordained it" type argument doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying He chose water because He chose water? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. The abundance and availability of water makes sense as to WHY He ordained it that way. I mean, if He had said we needed to be baptized by going down into a tomb, lying there for three days, and then walking out (while it would have been a more accurate picture of what Jesus did), it would not have been practical. If He ordained it that way, we would have done it. But perhaps, just perhaps, He ordained the use of water because of it's availability and relative ease of access so all who are saved CAN be baptized. I agree, however, with your over all conclusion, I'd not be using a wet-suit in baptisms.
What about robes?
One last thing. phobia.
Hello My Brethren
ReplyDeletemaybe God created all the water on earth because He needed it for baptism.
He chose water because that is what He wanted to use. The thought He used water because of its abundant supply is no better than the idea that He just chose water becaues that is what He wanted to use. He did, however, choose water. Why? Because He wanted to use water.
We can speculate on the issue all we want but in the end we come back to "He ordained it so".
No fun, lets debate something really good James.
LLL
I was just saying that "He chose water b/c He chose water" does not answer the question of why. I was simply offering a possible explanation, though the truth is, we will never know on this earth.
ReplyDeleteThere is a reason. I don't see our God (of the Bible) just acting sporadically and spontaneously, randomly or at whim. He seems to have a very calculated plan, with purpose in every action He makes. We humans do things based on what we want to do at the time (which only leads to errors and mistakes).
I believe God loves men, and created this earth in just a way that men might dwell in it and seek Him and feel after Him (Acts 17:27).
I'm simply saying God had a reason for choosing water, and since the earth was created for men finding and choosing Him, the most logical explanation I can come up with is that POSSIBLY He chose it due to its abundance, in that all men would be able to be baptized with relative ease. Going down into a tomb, lying there, and coming back up three days later would be a MUCH better picture tying us to Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Isn't that what we say baptism is, just a picture with no magical qualities? Anyway, this would be a MUCH better picture for the world to see, but it is NOT readily available or practical or applicable.
As to God creating water just for baptism, I don't think so, since water serves a plethora of purposes. Humans, plants, animals, the flood, lack of it for droughts and plagues, etc.