I am an advocate of the doctrine of security of the believer. I believe the Bible teaches that salvation has always been by grace through faith. I also believe that the doctrine of security of the believer has always been a part of God's plan. The Old Testament saints, when saved, were secure just as we are today.
Here is the question. Could there have been those present in the times of Jesus who had been saved, but didnt beleive Jesus was the promissed Messiah?
Example: The 70 year old Hebrew, who had been saved for many years, while sitting in his house his wife comes in and says, "They are crucifying that man called Jesus today". The man replys, "Well He claimed to be the Messiah, I guess He wasnt. We will keep looking"
This man was saved but didnt beleive that Jesus was the promissed Messiah.
COULD THIS HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE IN THAT DAY???????
One more question for you guys--Did the Jews have to believe in the Death Burial and Resurrection of Christ to be saved? (Pre D-B-R)
Bring what you got boys--When you are finished with all the jargon I will lay it one you.
L.L.L.
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They had to believe Jesus was the Christ, the Savior, the Redeemer to be saved. They may not have understood it, but they had to believe it to be saved.
ReplyDeleteLet's see how deep a hole these dawgs can dig on this one before I half to swoop in and rescue them.
ReplyDeleteHere Kitty Kitty Kitty
ReplyDeleteI'll be back. Still inside my cave eating a rat.
ReplyDeleteThe dawgs are scratching their heads on this one. I say they were saved. Once saved always saved. They were saved by faith in the Messiah.
ReplyDeleteAc 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
ReplyDeleteSo is it possible for a man to believe in the Messiah for salvation, but not believe Jesus is the Messiah.
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
I don't think so, however we've all had doubts including Thomas. But, wouldn't the Spirit bear witness to born again believers that Jesus was/is the Messiah.
Great question!!
Well, since they didn't have the name "Jesus" in the Old Testament, what name were they saved by? Probably by the accepting of the coming sacrifice, or Messiah.
ReplyDeleteWould the Spirit bear witness if a person is outside of the will of God? Let's look at this.
A Jew, saved at age 12 trusting on the coming Messiah, reaches age 40 and has become so angry with the Pharisee's type of religion (angry church member), that he decides He is going to drop out of "church" or temple worship. In so doing, he falls out of God's will into a deep place of ungodliness. He is living a life of sin. Jesus comes, and this particular Jew has not heard Jesus' preach or seen a miracle. He just hears stories. He shrugs it off as another false prophet. The Spirit calls out to Him, but he is so far out of God's will, he can not hear the still small voice.
He rejects the man named Jesus as Messiah, but he was saved by trusting on the coming Messiah at age 12. Do not saved men get deeply involved in false religion today? The Spirit is still convicting through the Word today, but they have hardened their hearts to the truth.
This is risky, but here goes.
ReplyDeleteJesus said, "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it (Lk.16:16)."
I would guess that most Jews during Jesus' day were lost. (Is.53..."a root out of DRY GROUND")
Therefore, most all of them were accountable to receiving Jesus or remaining lost.
"But as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name..." John 1:12
Perhaps (a BIG perhaps) those who had actually placed their faith in a coming Messiah beforehand ARE many of the ones who did embrace Jesus (Jewish converts, Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, etc.)??
I quote, "Here is the question. Could there have been those present in the times of Jesus who had been saved, but didnt beleive Jesus was the promised Messiah?"
ReplyDeleteI find it hard to believe that there were many, if any, that were saved at this time. In my opinion the ones who truly believed the Scriptures teaching were also followers of John, from which he had prepared the material, that would make up the Church that Jesus called out.
I think these were the ONLY followers who were saved, who had the sensitivity to God's leadership to follow the messiah.
God's plan of salvation has NEVER changed...the Jews looked forward to Jesus (Messiah) we look back but repentance and faith is God's plan of Salvation!
A YU MAN!
Still eating the rat.
ReplyDeleteIn response to, "I find it hard to believe that there were many, if any, that were saved at this time. In my opinion the ones who truly believed the Scriptures teaching were also followers of John, from which he had prepared the material, that would make up the Church that Jesus called out."
ReplyDeleteWhat if they lived further away. Surely we wouldn't believe only people in Judah and Galilee were saved. What if a person lived further and the news of Jesus reached him on his last day of life (dying) and he didn't have time to ponder this John the Baptist or Jesus. What about those who died a day after Jesus was born, or a day after Jesus began his ministry. What about those saved people who didn't hear the gospel at all in their lifetime b/c it had not yet spread to their part of the world?
faith in the messiah...that's it...my thinking is that the condotion of the world at that time was so secular and the religion so corrupt that the Truth was hardly being taught.
ReplyDeleteHow many religious leaders are found to be approved of in the NT?
There were not that many saved people during the formative years of Jesus' life...people were saved during John's ministry (who still pointed to the coming messiah) but what did he say to the pharisees when they came to him?
Did John know that Jesus was the Messiah? YES, Then why does he ask this question?
ReplyDeleteLuk 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
Luk 7:20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
I believe that there were Jews that believed in the Messiah and were wanting to be sure that Jesus was Him.
There was at least this one group of believers that did not yet believed in "Jesus".
What about the women who watch his death, but three days later went to anoint his body? Were they saved? They did not believe he was resurrected. What about the disciples who raced to the tomb? Where they saved? Seems they might have had doubts. What about Thomas??
ReplyDeleteAs to not many religious leaders being "approved" in the scriptures, I think there were some who were seeking the Messiah at least.
ReplyDeleteRead carefully John 3:1+
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
It appears with the phrase "a man of the Pharisees" and the use of the plural second person pronoun that Jesus was referring to a group that Nicodemus came representing. I think he wasn't the only one wanting to know.
Hello Brothers,
ReplyDeleteHey Big J how do you know that there were not many saved during the formative years of Jesus' life?
What did he say about the Pharisees?
LLL
he said to the pharisees that they cross heaven and earth to make one proselyte, and they make them two-fold the child of Hell?
ReplyDeleteHow many do you think? Do you honestly beleieve that their were thousands of followers before Jesus called out the ...what number...12. bottom line is that not many people were sensitive to God (he'd been silent for 400 years remember)
If there were followers of the Messiah...they would have been persuaded of the OT prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus and they would have believed that Jesus was he!
Brethren,
ReplyDeleteI guess I am missing something and maybe this reply does not address the issue but here goes anyway.
I believe that the Bible teaches that the people in the O. T. before the time of Jesus were saved by grace through faith just like the people are saved in the N. T. church age. The Jehovah-God of the O. T. is the same as Jesus of the N. T. He has ever been the Redeemer of whosoever believes in Him. They of the Old Testament era looked forward to the cross; we of the New Testament era look back. Both look in faith.
Was not Abraham saved? I quote the O. T. and The N. T.
Genesis 12:3 (KJV) "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." (this one in whom all the families of the earth would be bless is none other than the virgin born son of Mary, Jesus Christ.)
Genesis 15:6 (KJV) "And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
Romans 4:3 (KJV) "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
Romans 4:9 (KJV) "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness."
Galatians 3:6 (KJV) "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Galatians 3:7 (KJV) "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham."
Galatians 3:8 (KJV) "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."
Galatians 3:9 (KJV) "So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."
>>The gospel was preached to these people in the O. T. era.
Was not the plan of salvation pictured in the sacrifices in the O. T.?
Was not King David saved?
The Psalms are full of his testimony.
Paul, the Apostle quotes David (Psalms 32)in
Romans 4:6 (KJV) "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,"
Romans 4:7 (KJV) "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered."
Romans 4:8 (KJV) "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."
>>What about Job, a Gentile, was he not saved?
His testimony is given in Job 19.
Job 19:25 (KJV) "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:"
Job 19:26 (KJV) "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:"
Job 19:27 (KJV) "Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."
What about Phillip and Nathanael were they not already saved?
John 1:45 (KJV) "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."
>>For Peter said in Acts 10:43 (KJV) "To him (Jesus or Jehovah-God, the Messiah) give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
>>John the Baptist prepared the material for Jesus to take and organize His church during His personal Ministry. Was not John already saved before he announced in John 1:29 (KJV) "... Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
Well, I guess maybe I have missed the point,
Joseph L. Looney (2)
Gillette, WY